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Why the Manosphere Exists in One Post (For Beginners)

Reader Audrey makes a wonderful comment, one which I think embodies quite well how the average person reacts when they stumble upon the manosphere:

I really don’t understand the manosphere. I came across a blog article one of my FB friends posted and then discovered that there was this whole “manosphere” on the internet. I’ve been reading a bunch of blog entries, and haven’t read anything on this blog other than this one entry. I figured it’d be a nice place to ask some of the stuff that I am wondering.

What I don’t understand is why there is so much backlash against women on these blogs. How does someone hurt you guys so badly?

I don’t know, I think at one point in my life (in high school), I was one of the girls you guys would have been hurt by. I wasn’t sleeping around, but I was the attractive girl who was friends with all the nerdy guys (who all had crushes on me) and dated the self-confident jerks.

The thing is, after I was hurt a couple of times by these jerks and went to college, I realized that that’s not something I want out of a partner. I now date a completely different type of man. I guess maybe y’all would call my current type a beta, but I don’t think that’s true at all. I think that a real man doesn’t have to flaunt that he is one in such an obvious way. And yes, a real man takes care of his significant other.

Maybe what I’m saying won’t register to any of you, but all of my friends have undergone the same transformation (we’re all 22 at this point) and started dating kind and caring men at some point during college. The whole shtick advocated by the manosphere (be dominant, alpha male, whatever) doesn’t work on us. I don’t wan to be dominated. Maybe that’s because my friends and I are looking for real, meaningful relationships with guys.

For example, my current boyfriend was a super shy, gamer engineer whom I brought out of his shell because I saw something special in him and was attracted to his brain, personality, and looks. To me, he is the whole package. He is manly, but also gentle and kind to me. He takes care of me when I’m sick and I do the same with him. I don’t notice other guys much because I love my boyfriend so much.

Sure, everyone makes mistakes (and I have admitted to passing over quality guys for jerks in high school, but I was young and didn’t know better), but all I see on these blogs is a bunch of guys who are letting their high school insecurities dictate how they will behave for the rest of their lives. You’re trying to become the jerks. I don’t understand that. if you don’t like something, sure you can change it, but don’t turn into a jerk and try to manipulate women into getting with you in that way. What kind of a person does that make you? That’s not what relationships are built on.

Thanks for the thoughtful comment, Audrey.  It’s very heartfelt and you have some great points.  I consider myself a moderate in the manosphere.  I don’t have a superhigh partner count, and I am young but not actively gaming–I’m in a monogamous relationship with a girl I love. I think you’ve come to the right place for an even opinion on why people get drawn into it.

First, to answer your question ‘Why do guys get hurt so badly?’ I will direct you to the story I wrote about my own college roommate:

http://www.youngmanredpill.com/2012/12/23/the-worst-way-to-lose-your-virginity/

To sum up, my roommate, “Dan,” had a girlfriend for four years who refused to have sex with him even as he was the nicest boyfriend on the face of the earth.  He would do anything for this girl, and she didn’t reciprocate with sex because he was such a pushover.  Dan is an example of someone who has been over-feminized by today’s society and cannot man up and take control of his relationships as a result, especially the sexual side.  He feels demonized by his own human (sexual) desires.

There is a large population of guys like him these days who have never been able to find a willing partner because they have been LGBF’d (let’s just be friends-ed) by lots of girls. They watch the girls they know hook up with the very guys they complain about. Nice guys get very sexually frustrated, this can lead to frustration in other areas of life as well.   In the case of my roommate Dan, after four years of blue balls he finally broke up with his college GF and then went and had a one night stand with some random. Sad, I know.  Not long after, he had a breakdown and ended up in a mental hospital (true story).

It is often hard for girls, especially attractive ones, to relate to a guy like Dan. This is because it has always been incredibly easy for a young female to find a willing mate if she decides she wants sex. For example, even my own gf, who is awesome, hot, and down-to-earth, has trouble emphathizing when I tell her how hard guys actually have to work for sex.  Yea, the guys that get it a lot make it look easy, but that’s about 1/10 of the male population.  The other 9/10 are working their asses off.

When people have problems, they search for answers.  They question their worldview.  The manosphere is made up of lots of guys like Dan questioning “Why am I so bad at managing my sexual relationships while for other guys it doesn’t even seem to be something on their radar?  It just ‘happens’ for them?”  “Why have I been whacking it to porn on every night but I can’t ever have a real, meaningful sexual relationship with an actual girl?”

The answer to Dan’s connudrum lies in the fact that he has never been taught relationship skills.  But where is he to learn those skills?  They are not taught to him by his father, nor his mother, nor his high school teacher.  No, instead he is afraid to initiate sex with his girlfriend because he is afraid that he might not have consent, even with his longterm girlfriend, since he’s read too many articles like this one and follows them to the ‘T’:

http://pentopapertherapy.blogspot.com/2013/03/how-to-tell-if-you-may-be-rapist.html

What Dan NEEDS is to overcome approach anxiety and gain some basic relationship and social skills.  Sometimes, though, he might become bitter and the result would be what you wrote here:

Sure, everyone makes mistakes (and I have admitted to passing over quality guys for jerks in high school, but I was young and didn’t know better), but all I see on these blogs is a bunch of guys who are letting their high school insecurities dictate how they will behave for the rest of their lives. You’re trying to become the jerks. I don’t understand that. if you don’t like something, sure you can change it, but don’t turn into a jerk and try to manipulate women into getting with you in that way. What kind of a person does that make you? That’s not what relationships are built on. (emphasis mine)

I can see where you are going here, and there is some definite truth to this statement.  Some guys are manipulative in the sphere.  But the manosphere is about more than revenge of the nerds (in most cases).

Now I’ll get specific.  There are a few different categories of guys to whom the manosphere especially appeals.  Below I have provided examples of typical blogs:

1) Guys who have been burned, badly, in divorces, or watched their wives get fat in marriage and thus stopped having a sex life are on the manosphere. Some of them lost a bunch of their stuff to their wife (I’m stereotyping here!). These are the comments you will see from guys on manosphere blogs saying ‘never get married!  It’s the end of your life!’  Many of them probably fall into the mainstream category of ‘misogynist.’

http://heartiste.wordpress.com/2009/02/18/why-i-left-my-fat-wife/

http://www.returnofkings.com/319/who-is-mark-minter

2) “Nice guys” who have been seriously over-feminized (read: they are afraid to take initiative) by our culture and have had trouble getting quality girls to sleep with them or be their gf. Meanwhile, they watch “asshole” masculine dudes who are the antithesis of them sleep with loads of women. Thus, they seek to become more proactive in relationships as opposed to reactive.

http://thequestfor50.com/

http://stagedreality.wordpress.com/author/leapofabeta/

http://www.rooshv.com/feminism-killed-the-nice-guy

3) Guys, (and some girls) who recognize the hyperfeminization of men and the masculinization of women in our culture, away from their natural state, and don’t like it.  Some of these guys are married with families and just want to improve their sex lives.  They might comment on the skewedness of our legal system towards women in reality, while the mainstream media tells you otherwise. Or they might just give other guys advice on how to have sex with their wife more than once per month by giving real, as opposed to mainstream sex advice:

http://rationalmale.wordpress.com/2013/01/09/nice-like-me/

http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2012/12/08/children-are-as-likely-to-end-up-living-with-neither-parent-as-they-are-with-just-their-father/

http://marriedmansexlife.com/2012/12/sexy-move-wont-know-until-you-try/

4) I’m giving JB her own category because I love her so much.  This is the best place to go if you want to find out about why the manosphere exists.  JB has a son and two daughters and stays at home with them right now, but will undoubtedly write a famous book sometime in the near future, mark my words (you read it here first, JB!) She deconstructs examples of feminist arguments with a flair and logic that I simply don’t see elsewhere.  She has really been coming into her own as of late.

http://judgybitch.com/2013/03/29/men-stand-up-for-yourselves-and-we-will-hate-you-the-new-feminist-war-cry/

http://judgybitch.com/2013/03/26/older-men-with-younger-women-bad-older-women-with-younger-men-okay/

5) And me, you ask? Why do I put energy into this blog?  I spent two years in the Peace Corps immersed in a culture in which the masculine-feminine roles were clearly defined, and both men and women embraced them.  When I got back to the states, I realized how far away we have swung on the pendulum as a result of feminism.  And that while feminism has had some benefits, it has also caused some problems. Guys are told not to be men, and women are told not to be ladies.  There are more personal reasons too, that I won’t go into, but let’s just say I decided to join the manosphere conversation because I believe I see value in the intellectual conversation being had about why men find it hard to be manly these days.

The cultural movements of history swing on a pendulum. For example, the counter-culture of the 1960s was mainly a reaction against the social norms of the 1940s and 1950s.  What we are seeing in the manosphere is the manifestation of a counter-culture rebelling against a super-pro-feminist society.  Men and women in the ‘sphere don’t like the current cultural status quo. So…they blog about it.

I hope I didn’t get too much off on a rant there, but I really thought your comment was sincere and I wanted to respond as fully as I could.    Thanks Audrey, and I hope this post will help you as well as anyone who is curious about the manosphere to understand it better.

57 comments… add one

  • I’ll add that your commenter seems to be working with at least one false premise – she’s implied that because she and her own social circle all switched to greater betas by age 22, that there is no reason for guys to change, and anything we feel after is high-school drama.

    A couple of problems with that:

    1) Women are herd creatures; each social circle engages in very similar activities at similar times. There’s a reason divorce and obesity are contagious. If it’s “in” to give up alphas for betas in your circle, that’s what happens; doesn’t make it the norm for all girls your age. The girls around me didn’t change – so now we each have an anecdote, each going the opposite way. Our generalizations mean nothing – but a collected body of experience from thousands of young men starts to mean something. And much of that experience has been negative.

    2) I’m 27. I hit puberty at 12. By age 24, I had had sex about 20 times. Total. In 12 years of trying. That’s including a generous two-year window after college where, according to you, girls had changed. Then I found the manosphere, found Game, and within a year I was getting laid regularly. I fit the profile of your engineering boyfriend – I’m an engineer, too. He could be me. Game works; what I was doing before didn’t. Why would I change back? Half the reason I went to law school as of last year was to apply the newfound skills to college once again. It’s not high school drama – it’s college and post-college drama, where the exact same story played out.

    3) Most of us aren’t turning into jerks and manipulating women. You think that because here, in a safe and anonymous space, men finally have a place to vent where others identify with them, support them, respect them, and offer them a means to do better the second time around. Take those 12 years I was talking about above. How much support do you think I had? Sure, my guy friends would shrug in commiseration when I complained about my lack of success, but no one had any idea what to do, and I couldn’t really get my thoguhts and feelings out. It built up for quite a while. How would you react if you had no place to vent about your biggest source of feeligns of inadequacy, for more than a decade, only to finally find the perfect one? How about if you had to be extra-careful never to say anything that could be traced back to you by a potential employer for fear of being fired? Same way we do here. Don’t mistake the venting anger for real-life, unending hatred. We’re men – we want solutions, not a life of wallowing in our problems. New men come every day to vent, and that’s just part of the manoshpere’s benefit.

    I don’t hold you in any contempt for not understanding. But please understand that when I refuse to take a girl’s suggestions for how I should live my life, how I should make myself more attractive, long experience has taught me to ignore it. I don’t doubt that your heart is in the right place, or that you’re smart enough to intellectually grasp what’s going on if you apply yourself to it. It’s just that I’ve heard those exact sentiments you are telling us – many, many times before. There is nothing new under the sun, and I’ve dealt with those thoughts before. They do nothing but hurt me.

    Reply
    • “Most of us aren’t turning into jerks and manipulating women.”

      I think one of the misconceptions of guys who use ‘game’ is that they are all just running a big con or something like that. Really, game is the opposite. It is about being up front and learning communication skills that will help you. For most of us, hopefully, it’s about the realization of the inner game that it will take to truly improve our lives, which, in turn, gives us more sexual options.

      Reply
      • It’s funny, because PUAs have been telling men this for years, and yet men still insist on thinking Game is cheap parlour tricks used to manipulate. David D’Angelo had a couple whole DVD series’, I think about a decade ago, called “On Being a Man”, and “Deep Inner Game” if I’m not mistaken.

        Hawaiian Libertarian wrote an article many years ago, called “Game is the Red Pill”, which I put into Mrm! magazine in an attempt to convey to MRAs the importance of learning this aspect of Game. I included at least one Gmae article in every issue of Mrm! and MenZ I compiled for this reason. I still truly believe that Game Theory is utterly **critical** to men getting out of the situation we are in….

        First, it gives men the confidence to let their balls drop a bit, and stiffen their spine a bit. Second, it makes men less ‘contemptible’ as a whole in women’s eyes, thus worthy of more compassion. Third, Game emphasizes self-reliance where possible, and promotes (in some ways) a healthy self-image, something Government and Feminism have been chipping away at for decades.

        Awareness among men is growing exponentially nowadays, and even among some women as well. Frankly, it’s time to start developing a “Deep Inner Game” awareness among men, giving them the tools they need to see the World clearly, and make rational choices based on reality, rather than Propaganda. Make no mistake, this is a deliberate Social Engineering that is going on, which means the Government is both aware of the issues, and supportive of the outcomes, which they see as serving a ‘greater good’, who are usually also members of the cult of Feminism.

        These are not people that can be lobbied or convinced, only by making their agenda impossible to accomplish will we stymy them, and even then, only if we manage to defeat changes in tactics employed along the way.

        Unless men learn HOW to view the world from a non-feminist perspective, they will be unable to absorb the REAL message of the Manosphere…which is essentially a conversation about what kind of society we have, and what kind of society we would like.

  • There are some guys here who have always said “Don’t get married”. From an early age, I from the mistakes of others. I’ve been hurt in love, but have never been taken to the cleaners.

    Reply
    • How old are you gaoxiaen, out of curiosity?

      One of my favorite manosphere writers is donlak and he writes a logical post here on marriage in the sphere:

      http://donlak.wordpress.com/2012/09/03/get-married/

      Donlak is always doing the Kansas City Shuffle: Everyone looks left, he goes right.

      Reply
  • There are men out there in all 3 of those categories who aren’t aware of the manosphere. This isn’t mainstream stuff and it’s difficult to find if you aren’t looking for it. The guys who are in the manosphere wanted/desired/needed change so much that it stumbled into their life. I wanted answers on how to improve my dating life so much that I actively searched online and came across this stuff.

    The Misogyny is a microscopic part really, some guys are bitter/cynical and it’s quite sad, bitterness can be confronting and that’s why it pervades the manosphere more than it should. I was demonizing my own natural masculine instincts as mainstream media painted a world where I would be rewarded for that. I was not rewarded at all, I lived a vapid life. Game helped me change that and now I’m very content and will continue.
    What’s more is that when I meet people who don’t care for advice or change in their own world I don’t mind, I get along with everyone. I also meter my levels of cynicism so if I am becoming biter fo any reason I’ll know about it.

    Reply
    • “I was demonizing my own natural masculine instincts as mainstream media painted a world where I would be rewarded for that. ”

      This comment is spot on, and it’s how I feel as well. I like concrete examples of male demonization, so here is one: I remember in my liberal arts college I had this one feminist English teacher who I knew would judge me for being a masculine frat boy, which I was. So I literally changed my body acting and language in her class so she wouldn’t judge me: I would dress hipster-ish and go to class, cross my legs effeminately in class, wear my glasses, gesticulate weirdly, etc. Got a fucking A and did nothing for that class. In retrospect, I could not be more pissed at my 20 year old self for dropping principles just to please a prof.

      Reply
      • Interesting, What do you think would have happened if you didn’t change your demeanour, yet did not disrupt the class but performed well academically?

      • It’s impossible to know. She already had her mind made up already about frat boys…I’d guess that I would have done worse but who knows? The point, I think, is simply that I FELT like I had to change myself so she didn’t form a perception of me as a masculine frat guy.

      • I had an active sex life at a young age and was pro feminism until I was attempting to get a PhD in my 20′s in Cognitive Psychology. There was only one female professor with whom I had to deal in a class on racism and stereotyping research (small note I am black). I worked feverishly in her class and was as diligent as I could be. One day I got a message that I had to meet with the dean of my department , the dean over graduate studies , and my female instructor. She at the meeting produced a presentation completely unbeknownst to me accusing me of being sexist and really attempted to nail me to the cross out of the blue. Luckily for me even though I was ambushed by this meeting I stood my ground and she ended up looking like a fool, and the deans both apologized to me for her behavior and allowed me mid semester to switch research professors. This is when I began to turn right.

  • Audrey seems like a decent girl, but her comment illustrates why women are so very bad at giving advice to men — because they’re unable to relate to or understand the issues men have to deal with.

    For example, this….

    “but all I see on these blogs is a bunch of guys who are letting their high school insecurities dictate how they will behave for the rest of their lives”

    Of course some guys are still going to be defined by their high school insecurities… because they still carry them with them. Their insecurities stem from the fact that they weren’t successful with girls when they were in school, that they were the kind of guys that girls ignored or made fun of, or (if the girls were kind to them) friend-zoned. But girls didn’t want anything to do with romantically in any case. How are those insecurities supposed to go away unless those guys can deal with the cause — i.e., learn how to meet and attract girlfriends? It’s not like they can just shrug it off and say.. “I’ve decided that I’m going to be confident around women now. I’ve decided that they really want me after all. That whole high school thing, all those experiences? Never happened. Whew! I feel much better now.”

    Yes, a lot of these guys will be able to move past those insecurities later on once they start having more success with women, but it’s not going to happen until they start getting real results. And they won’t get those results unless they can get advice that really works.

    And if they try to get advice from mainstream-blue pill sources, they’ll be given worthless platitudes like “JBY” or “be nice” at best, or vilified as “potential rapists” by the Futrelles and Marcottes at worst.

    Hence the need for the manosphere.

    Reply
  • Was going to comment on this brilliant post, but it became a post all on it’s own. http://omnipitron.com/2013/03/30/expanding-on-why-the-manosphere-exists/

    It’s important for women like Audrey to realize just what men are up against in this day and age. Hopefully she realizes, but I’m not holding my breath.

    Reply
  • Thanks so much for all your perspectives! Obviously, I didn’t at all understand the manosphere before making that comment, and I sincerely appreciate all the perspectives you have given me in this post and these comments. I never thought about these issues before, but that’s probably because I just haven’t seen guys who have been affected the way that you all have described your and other guys’ experiences (to my knowledge). I’ll definitely look into all the linked articles to get a better idea of what you guys are talking about.

    I was really afraid I’d be laughed out of this forum, but thank you guys for being so kind to me and giving me a new perspective and lots of places to start. :)

    Reply
    • Just by way of explanation, I was one of those guys who did well with women in high school — and college. I was the type of “jerk” who was dating three women at age 19.

      What brought me to the manosphere was sociological in nature: everything from educational and media bias against male interests to how men are treated in family courts and the church (see Dalrock).

      We’re not all bitter guys who couldn’t get laid in high school. Google my handle and “pregnancy scare” to see what I was dealing with at 18 (it’s on the Roosh forum). There are bigger issues out there and that’s what’s brought a lot of us here. The male-female relations of today are almost a metaphor for what’s going on in the larger sense.

      Reply
      • Vox Day of alphagame is a natural, Rollo of rationalmale is a natural, xsplat is a natural, there are a bunch of other as well both as bloggers and as commentators. Athol Kay is very happily married and he and his wife have only had sex with each other. Vox and Rollo are also happily married. Susan Walsh is happily married. Dalrock is happily married. A bunch of guys like hawaiian libertarian, Ian Ironwood, THe gamingmywife dude and others where happily married, found their relationships go downhill when they started to follow mainstream advice on relationships but got really great relationships after they found the sphere and are today very happily married. Paul Elam is a late blooming natural. He never learned picup but got really good game later in life by figuring stuff out for himself. A bunch of PUA teachers and famous posters are naturals. FrancoPUA, COSY, James Marshall, Brent Smith, Zan.

        So, while a lot of the sphere and PUAs come from frustration a significant subset do not and amongst many that struggled the path to success was not so long.

        Personally I quite easily attrated women through looks and general alphaness but had a lot less success than I otherwise woul have had partly because I was bad at escalating and partly because I started to follow feminist messages arround men and women. I was much better with women in my mid teens when I was still following my instincts more than later on when I had been shamed enough to really try to follow the feminist script. This combined with noticing discrimination like outlined in my previous post and general hostility towards masculinity is what has drawn me here. Once I got here I discovered that there are important issues such as marriage stability and economic output that are harmed by feminism as well and I have gotten a broader perspective on it all. I`ve been angry for periods of time before but I have no anger anymore just a desire to change things and make them right. Turn over the negative influence of feminism and teach people how to have good relationships and make wise choices etc.

    • Yep, the manosphere is not just about sleeping with women, it’s about how we are going to raise our sons and daughters some day.

      Audrey, if you have any more questions, def ask. I consider you the exact demographic that the manosphere needs to help understand what the sphere is about.

      Reply
      • God help us if some of you dicks have kids. Do you want dudes doing the bullshit some of you pull on your daughter? lol Every time I hear some dude talk about shot guns and his daughter I just wonder what kind of asshole he was.

    • The best way to look at the Manosphere is a bunch of men looking for how to be happy. This takes many forms of discussion – women, sex, politics, law, pop culture, biology, evolution, pyschology, etc. Women are the most prevalent topic, because they bind together a lot of what the manosphere sees wrong in the other topics as well as most men having a healthy sexual appetite and no where else in culture we’re allowed to really express it.

      Reply
  • Very good post! Audrey I think you are asking fair questions: I appreciate your open questioning and the respect with which you ask. I think you deserve good answers.

    A big part of the manosphere is also criticism of feminist policies in general. This can come as a surprise to most women and many men as well. Feminism did champion several important and fair issues on behalf of women. However, feminism has gone completely overboard in a lot of ways. I am copying in a post that I wrote somewhere else answering a feminist that asked how feminism has worked against the interests of men;

    Feminists spread the myth that women got harder punishments than men for doing the same crime. Based upon that belief a wide range of special programs and means of support was put in place in England (and probably many other places as well) in order to help women to compensate for this. A wide range of studies from several different countries, and the english justice departments own numbers, show that it is actually the other way around. Men got 50-70% harder punishments for exactly the same crime. That is a several hundred percent larger sentencing addition than you get for being black. everyone seem to (correctly) buy into the claim that you get discriminated against for being black in the justice system but no one knows the discrimination for being a man is much harder. A male british MP finally brought this to the attention of the british parliament and made the minister of justice admit that the governments belief was wrong.

    As this study shows boys falling grades are almost entirely explained by changes in grading policy implemented at the wishes of feminists in order to improve things for girls. Anyone with any sense could have predicted exactly how bad this policy shift would have been for boys:

    http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/eliminating-feminist-teacher-bias-erases-boys-falling-grades-study-finds

    A repport made by the Norwegian government organization Reform in conjunction with feminist antifeminism experts from the whole of Scandinavia has, on behalf of the Nordic council of ministers, made a report that recommends criminalizing speech that is critical of feminism and critical of feminist views of gender roles. You can read about that here:

    http://forums.avoiceformen.com/showthread.php?tid=2971

    I have read the article in Norwegian, the report itself and a couple of other newspaper accounts. What it says is true. THe group writing the report IS the feminist establishment in the Nordic countries. Reform is a government organization that is supposed to work on behalf of men. The “experts” are the most famous and celebrated feminists in the nordic countries. They where paid to make the report on behalf of the Nordic governments. This is really a new extreme but it is nothing unexpected for those who know swedish feminism and it is not at all unexpected by MRAs. We have been waiting for this to happen as we have seen so many feminists call for similar things and show such authoritarian tendencies.

    Feminist organizations and feminists with clout in the media have consistently worked against fathers rights. I follow fathersandfamilies quite regularly and almost every step of the way feminist organizations fight the rights of men in family law. It is exactly the same in the nordic countries. The latest is the proposal of the Norwegian equality minister to change the law so that if the custodial parent FEELS that the visitation parent (or whatever it is called in english) is abusing the child or is not good for the child, visitation rights are immediately suspended. The visitation parent has to go through a long, long court process to ever see their child again. Now everyone knows that the custodial parent is almost always the mother. So the actual effect of the law is to give mothers this right to remove the rights of the fathers access based on their own FEELINGS. Now the law would not have been that bad had the visiting parent had the right to get the child removed from the custodial parents based on their feelings but that is not what the law says. Despite numerous organizations speaking up and showing evidence for the fact that most abuse is done by custodial parents the minister has not changed her mind and the law will probably pass. The same ministry of equality has also published booklets about domestic violence using only examples of fathers being perpetrators and mothers victims in every instance and made numerous other questionable materials and laws all falling into the same pattern of removing the rights of fathers and demonizing men.

    In Norway women get extra credits for entry to 136 subjects in university and men get them for only 4 or 6. This is despite women dominating higher education. The extra credits have a lot of impact and make a lot of men unable to take any education or the education they wanted and was most qualified for. This is a very serious issue. We are talking about ruining the lives of many, many men in the sense of them not getting an education or spending their lives doing something they did not want to do. Many have spoken up about this and it is years since the issue was raised the first time but feminists do nothing to change the policy they implemented. One man sent a letter to the ministry of equality complaining about this formally and in the reply it said it would do nothing as the Norweigan law of equality and discrimination say you can not discriminate on behalf on gender but you can do so in order to advance the position of women. So basically the law says that you can not discriminate against women but you can do so against men as much as you want as long as it serves women’s advancement in society. Truly Orwellian.

    Then there is domestic violence. Erin Pizzey opened the first crisis center for women in the early seventies or so. She quickly found out that 50% or so of the women that came in where as violent as the men they where fleeing from and so wanted to make a center for men. As she came across further research showing parity in domestic violence she campaigned to get the truth out there. She was vilified by feminists of redoing so, threatened to death and had to flee the country. Ever since feminists have tirelessly presented domestic violence as something only men do to women and children and not the other way around and that the men do it as part of patriarchy. They have done this despite hundreds of studies showing this to be bunk. They have falsely spread the myth of male violence against children knowing fully well far more children are hit by their mothers. They have done this to advance their own cause and get fundings for themselves. They have used demonizing men based on lies as a tactic for support. They have KNOWN for decades that what they where saying was a lie because some much research, their own even, showed this to be the case. There are countless examples of feminist scholars finding symmetry in domestic violence in their own studies and then reporting only the numbers of men hitting women to the press and only the numbers of men hitting children to the press. The consequence has been that male victims have not gotten help and that children abused by their mothers have not gotten help and that men have been demonized. I can personally attest to the destructive effects of this demonization. The constant messaging I was given about mens unique tendency for violence against women impacted me HARD and made forming a positive identity as a man very difficult. THat is important stuff. It is very destructive to men. And feminists are to blame for this. Had normal people like Erin Pizzey and non feminist researchers looking at domestic violence been alone in this field we would have never ended up with the shit we got but had gotten the proper information we are know only slowly getting out there decades ago.

    A lot of similar stuff can be said in terms of sexual abuse but I`ll leave Toysoldier to comment on that.

    Feminists have also worked against mens interests by spreading so much hatred and animosity towards men that the general culture of misandry we have to day has become possible. Men are constantly portrayed as idiots that can be treated as shit by their superior wives in advertisement and media. This is historically unique. It has only happened after the advent of feminism and it has only become possible because of the portrayal of men feminists have given. Here is a site devoted to that kind of misandry:

    http://misandrycommercials.wordpress.com/

    In sweden almost all the main feminists are supporters of the SCUM manifesto and of FORCING schoolchildren to watch it.

    Feminists have worked and work tirelessly to give women extra payment for doing less. The pay gap between women and men is there for the following reasons. In a variety of ways men make choices where they choose a higher salary as a compensation for a higher risk or higher discomfort while women make the opposite choice. Men choose jobs that one can more easily get fired from and so pay less to compensate for that in order for anyone to want the jobs. Men take jobs that have a higher possibility of a high salary but a risk of an unstable salary. Men choose jobs with less flexible hours, with more over time and take jobs they have to travel longer to get to. These and a variety of other choices have been documented by Warrenn Farrell to explain the pay gap and various other researchers, including some Norwegian ones, have found similar results. What feminists do is deny this and demand women get as much pay as men despite women not taking equal risks and having the greater comforts of women’s typical jobs. This is working against the interests of men.

    http://www.warrenfarrell.net/Summary/

    In India feminist organizations have EXPRESSLY asked that the rape laws are made so that rape is only something a man does to a woman not something a woman can do to a man.

    In Sweden the following now lands you in jail as a man. You boy and girl are a couple. When they are together they almost always have sex. They lie in beed sleeping and the boy wakes up. He wants sex and places the tip of his penis on his girlfriends lips waking her up. She waves the penis away and don`t want sex and the boy imideately accepts she does not want sex and they lay down and talk. Later on they have highly consensual sex. A few weeks later the boy breaks up with the girl. THe sad girl talks to some social worker or some such about the breakup and this woman persuades the girl she has been raped in the penis incident. The boy gets taken to court. The facts of the case are agreed upon the only question is what does swedish law say. After changes fought for by feminists this type of case is now classified as rape and the boy goes to jail. According to the definition of rape swedish feminists have gotten implemented I have been raped by several previous female sex partners and so have most other people.

    Feminists have fought for changes to college practices with regards to sexual assaults and rapes so that a man can now be expelled without a proper defense and only according to a very low standard of probability.

    Many, many feminists want to reverse the burden of proof so that men have to prove they did not rape any woman who claim she was raped.

    The women who run Norways primary anti rape initiative claims on their webpage that there are usually only one or two cases of false reports each year and these area easily handled by the police so represent no problem. Yet the Danish government did a study of all their rape reports in a two year period and found 7,3% of cases to be certainly false with a significantly higher number of false reports to be highly possible. International research points to numbers at this level or upwards to 15% or 25%. The feminist in this organization represent the mainstream elite feminists in Norway and many are quite famous. Yet this is how they take care of mens issues. Spreading lies in order to get it so easy to convict they can just throw men in jail whenever a woman points at a man and says he raped. In general feminists constantly try to claim false rape reports are extremely rare and on par with false claims of other crimes when the research shows they are common and far, far above the rate of other crimes which is just 1-2%.

    Then you have the whole Donglegate thing where feminists have driven workplace harassment stuff so far men have to shut their mouths in fear not knowing what they can say without getting fired.

    Then you have stuff like Naomi Wolf claiming 150 000 women die each year of eating disorders in the US while the real number is 525. She is trying to make people believe there is some sort of eating disorder holocost which men are to blame for.

    Then you have the extremely dubious “research” debunked by Chirstina Hoff Summers and many others showing that girls don`t suffer low self esteem more than boys and there is no self esteem crisis. And the myth they spread about how men battering pregnant women was a leading cause of birth disorders. And the myth of men battering women after Super Bowl. I suggest you read summers book whole stole feminism for documentation of many, many other similar myths.

    Then there is the swedish feminist party, with the most famous mainstream feminists in its leadership, singing “fucking man we hate you you fucking man” in their political meetings.

    And there is the case of the leader of ROKS the swedish crisis center organization saying in an interview that she thinks men are not really humans but on the level of animals and later following up on that a few years later claiming men are even worse than animals. She was defended by large segments of the swedish feminist elite. It has also been documented that the government funded organization ROKS actively tries to make the women who come to them isolate themselves, FOREVER, in all women collectives to get away from the evil men that of course are everywhere. I can provide you with a link to a documentary with english subtitles made by swedish broadcasting documenting this.

    Then you have almost the entire feminist cannon and the field of women’s studies full of hate speech about men. Dworkin, Mckinnon, Morgan, Greer, Brownmiller, Ensler, French and a whole range of others have said the most extreme hateful things about men yet they are celebrated by the feminist establishments and their thinking has been critical in feminist thinking and gender studies. The only feminist thinkers I have come across that I, from what i have read so far, can respect though I do not agree with is deBeauvoir, Hoff Summers Paglia and Betty Friedan. Of course Paglia and Hoff summers are seen as antifeminists by most feminists. The influence of these thinkers and of many, many others like them in research and in the culture at large has been very important and it has been extremely destructive towards men. They preach hate and it trickles down and becomes a softer form of hostility and animosity and anger towards men amongst regular feminists and in society at large.

    Then there is the affirmative action quotas on board rooms implemented in Norway that is being attempted implemented elsewhere. The proof used to justify this policy is that there are less than 50% women on the boards. THe problem with this is that the people old enough to have gotten such positions are from the ages of 40-70. WIthin that age groups as a WHOLE, far fewer than 50% women took educations such as business, law and engineering etc. that would qualify for such positions. Furthermore, very, very many women took brakes in their careers to be home with their children or opted out of their careers completely or worked part time. If they did not put in the work they where not discriminated against when they do not reach the top. IF they did not take the relevant education they where not discriminated against when they do not reach the top. Futhermore, far more women than men go to work in the government or non profit sector which sidetracks them from the path leading to boardroom positions. In addition fewer women put in the 12-14 hours a day six to seven days a week required to get to the top. taking that into account it is actually surprising that the numbers of women on boards of large companies are so high as they are IMO. Two studies I have seen show that women’s careers do not progress slower when they put in the same amount of work. One was a Norwegian doctoral thesis made by a woman that found zero difference in career progress when women worked the same amount of hours. The second was another international or swedish study (can`t remember). I can link to the second study if you want but haven`t been able to find the norwegian one in a long time. Eventually as the younger generation gets old enough to qualify for board positions they will get them. But currently women in the age right group have not put in the work and so 50% can not be expected. Yet by law companies now have to have 40% women on boards leading to women unfairly being given jobs they are not qualified for. This is gross discrimination of men by legal means and privelidge given to women. The most extreme case is in finance where only 10% women work at all levels in total and 40% of the board members are women.

    Spanish domestic violence law discriminates against men to an extreme, even absurd degree. It is horrendously repressive. And it has been implemented by feminists and feminists are fighting to maintain it:

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/feminism/government-tyranny/spanish-feminist-establishment-is-shaking/

    Then there are feminists opposition to paternity testing:

    http://www.avoiceformen.com/mens-rights/france-upholds-the-ban-on-paternity-tests/

    Feminists have successfully lobbied to have the military in many countries let some join the army while not being able to pass the same physical standards as men just a much lower female adjusted standard. This works against men both by taking away military jobs the men earned and the women that did not pass male standards did not and it works against men by leading to the death of men. How? Because a female soldier that can only cary half the weight a male soldier can cary and can`t carry that weight for anywhere near the length and with the speed a male soldier can will lead to the death of male wounded soldiers. Some will not get to help on time and some will be shot because they where not carried away in time. Much larger numbers of male troops will die because several soldiers moving together will be slowed down by women who can`t move at anywhere near the pace or speed the male soldiers can and so they will be caught by the enemy and shot. I`ve had friends in the army who carried parts of the things some of the women in their troops was supposed to carry in their bags as the women were not strong enough. Such an army leads to the death of competent male soldiers and poses a national security risk.

    In Sweden a study has found that while male fireman could break open a door in about 30 seconds, many of the female forewomen could not break open door in 10, i repeat 10, MINUTES. I wonder how many have died or will die because of that policy. And then there is the lesser but still important of the qualified men whose jobs where taken by unqualified women.

    I think this is a pretty impressive list of documentation of feminists working against the interest of men. I can provide you with links for everything if you want it as I have given links to all these things before but did not want to spend time on it now. This list encompassing a very wide list of fields, family law and fathers rights, standard of evidence and protection against false accusations, sentencing, grade discrimination in school and discrimination in entry to university, domestic violence, demonizing of men in the wider culture and legitimizing hatred of men, wages, career progress and other areas.The country specific examples I have given have counterparts in other countries. I read about similar cases all over the place all the time.

    I would highly advise you Audrey to read the book Who Stole Feminism by Christina Hoff Summers. Hoff Summers is an equity feminist. That means she believes in a level playing field for both women and men but that she believes there are some basic biological differences between men and women that will lead to different OUTCOMES in various fields. So she will think hat there probably will be more female nurses and more male engineers and that more men have the insane drive to work 14 hour days 6-7 days a week to become the CEO of a large company and more women will want to stay at home though most will probably work for most of their adult lives etc. This also leads her, and other equity feminists, to believe that trying to socially engineer men and women to become the same is futile and damaging.

    Feminism, in the late 60s started of quite similar to this. However, what can be termed gender feminism then took over. Gender feminists believe gender is only a social construct and we should work hard to make men and women behave exactly equal and have the same personalities on average. They also believe that if there is not exactly as many men and women in every field that is evidence of discrimination against women. Gender feminists are generally hateful or at least hostile to men and they have a wide variety views that to most women as well as men sound totally insane. However, because feminism is seen as so legitimate they have huge influence on government policy and on universities and the culture at large.

    If you want to understand the manosphere I really, really urge you to read Hoff Summers book. It provides solid documentation for our hostility to most feminists of today:

    http://wlxt.whut.edu.cn/new/ddxfzzsc/attachments/2/6/Who+Stole+Feminism+How+Women+Have+Betrayed+Women.pdf

    If you want to look even further I recommend reading Warren Farrells the Myth of Male Power. You can read and interview with him here and there are many videos on youtube with him. He used to be a rather famous feminist and he still advocates for some of the feminist issues he still believes is legitimate so he has solid credibility in terms of caring about women and he does not show a hint of anger or animosity towards women:

    http://newmalestudies.com/OJS/index.php/nms/issue/view/9

    Another non angry and reasonable source that explains MRA views well is the blog pellebilling.com. Genderratic.com is also good as is the videos of girlwriteswhat. Avoiceformen is also great but they use a much higher level of aggression than the other sources I mention. They actually have one third female readers so this is not just a male movement. http://toysoldier.wordpress.com is also a good blog.

    Reply
    • I hadn’t realized it had gotten that bad in Norway and Sweden. Ugh.

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    • Galt, that is an awesome post packed with re-bloggable details.

      You should seriously start up your own blog and keep posting stuff like that. I would read it.

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  • This article is an excellent example of how feminists teach men to destroy their sex lives or rather the possibility of one. This guy things that he his a sexist and does harm to women by looking at a their asses without first having gotten to know their personalities in a non sexual way. He is basically castrating himself and at war with his own sexuality. The day he wakes up and finds that what he got in return for trying to sacrifice his normal sexuality in order to please what he thinks is women but is really just disturbed feminists is not even nothing but contempt and scorn, he will become extremely angry and bitter and he will come to the sphere to learn. My teachers try to program me in a lot of the same ways and a feminist I know from university is payed by the government to hold courses in high schools where she teaches stuff like this to guys.

    http://goodmenproject.com/featured-content/hesaid-spring-has-sprung-but-you-dont-have-to/?utm_source=rss&utm_medium=rss&utm_campaign=hesaid-spring-has-sprung-but-you-dont-have-to

    Reply
    • Strange world, where gay men are proud of their sexuality but straight men are ashamed of theirs.

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    • I read http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/03/29/why-arent-men-responding-to-economic-signals/ yesterday, and it is one of the most epic posts I have read in the sphere in a while. Dalrock provides a very valid school of thought for why the economy continues to not recover: men are getting married later and later, and really have no motivation to work hard to create the economic surplus that they always have. I think this is where the manosphere will eventually intersect with the mainstream: economics. So true though. If you are a man of high value in the 21st century, do you want to get married to a women who can divorce you for no reason? Or do you want to fuck around for a while in your 20s and sleep with the loads of women who are willing to have dalliances, especially with a high value man?

      Married men will of course, have a motivation to pull through the 9-5 that they don’t really enjoy but know that their family is depending on them.

      God, this response just got really cynical. In spite of everything, I still do believe there are some good women out there.

      Reply
      • I think a good way to see it is that there are both some good women out there and there are a lot of women with good raw material out there but they need some additonal teaching to become good marriage material. It is basically just like for guys with PU. Men today are not very good marriage material either because they lack an ability to fulfill the masculine role in a relationship well. There are a bunch of girl blogs in the sphere and Athols forum is more than 50% female. These women are learning girl game and have done a very good job at changing things in their lives to be able to have good relationships and to treat men well. The problem is very much mutual and both genders have work to do.

        Some of the anger and negativity perception comes from the fact that men figured these things out first and are sort of whipping women into doing their own work. That in combination with the fact that feminism and society has sort of put women into the narcisistic spoiled position and men into the codependent beta position makes a harsh critique of women today necessary. But this is combined with a harsh critique of suplicating men without balls and white knigths and manginas and feminist men.

        It is also important to add that so many women WANT to do the type of work the women in the sphere do and have been feeling that something is wrong and something is missing in their lives and what the sphere offers is exactly what they really feel is lacking. This is complicated by the harsh messages needed and the fact that these women have been led to believe in many things that are still hard for them to understand is not true and is harmful. But still the desire is there it is just difficult to get the inital message across.

        My two posts in this thread can be good to read in order to leave anger behind and understand the harmony that is possible, natural even, in the dynamic tension between the masculine and feminine:

        http://dalrock.wordpress.com/2013/02/02/backlash-against-the-christian-manosphere/

      • Marriage works both ways. I don’t see woman wanting to commit to dudes who dick their way through their twenties so much either. * not everybody has a raging twenties orgyfest either.Would you guys feel less but hurt if the dudes were low value (since you mentioned it)?

        Good woman are out there, and we’re not amused with manwhores. I can’t say some won’t forgive and marry some of them later but men shouldn’t count on it. Personally if I find out the man I’m interested cheated on a gf, has an std or a kid or lied to get sex ( or slept with a prostitute) I’d cut him out of my life completely.

      • Wingwoman, like your point about women not wanting manwhores but this is not my experience of younger women. They really love the manwhores and players and alphas and can’t get enough of them until baby rabies set in then they want Joe Average.As for your list of things you will not tolerate in men I am a bit older than you I suspect having more success with the ladies than ever and my list runs like this:

        Have you ever been to countries like Morocco or Tunisia with group of only women ie sex tourism or ‘looking for love’.
        How much credit card and store card debt do you have. Have you had an abortion without discussing it with your ‘partner’.
        How much did you take in the settlement from your ex husband.

        Finally, you are the epitome of don’t listen to what women say look at what they do.

        Also, don’t feed the trolls

  • “What I don’t understand is why there is so much backlash against women on these blogs. How does someone hurt you guys so badly?”

    Yup, because the one thing that the manosphere is lacking is a clear statement, anywhere, of what our grievances might be.

    Either that, or this person simply doesn’t register things she doesn’t like.

    Reply
  • Aww. Thanks for the shout out, Keanu. You’re too sweet!

    Just to be clear, I have one son, who is seven years old, and two daughters, four and eleven.

    Most of my perspective comes from wanting to protect all my children from what I see as just runaway hatred against masculinity AND femininity in the mainstream media.

    I’m some kind of chump because I’m at home raising my own children and I have some kind of mental illness because I actually adore my husband and make him a drink every night. And he’s obviously some kind of abusive monster because all he does is pay all the bills.

    Such bullshit. The only women I know who are truly happy are the ones who are full time housewives. And I love that our single male friends, who see how my relationship with my husband works, now want their own JB.

    There are more and more of us everyday.

    Hooray!

    Reply
    • Thanks for the comment, JB. It has been interesting to see you go from ‘random blog I noticed back in the fall’ to essentially the most popular female authority blog in the manosphere, as well as one that I obsessively read now.

      I think you should use your film Ph.D. opportunity to write a thesis project/screenplay similar to ‘Girls’ the HBO series but from a different spin point. Hey, if you don’t, I will.

      Reply
  • This is a really solid and well thought out response to the questions, “Why does the manosphere exist and why should we listen to it?” I feel like we’ll be hearing more people asking this question every day as we seem to be building up some momentum.

    A ton of great links and info here, both in the post itself as well as in the great conversations going. Thanks for the link too, by the way.

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  • Keanu, I agree with you that a lot should be done in order to make the wisdom of the sphere easier to understand and digest for the sphere. I think most of the spheres ideas and arguments can be communicated in a much more neutral and non offensive way. I also think that many points will get across if someone can explain things logically and clearly enough for people. I`ve seen this countless times. Someone struggles with and idea and is sceptical or hostile to it and then someone offers a clear non offensive explanation and they suddenly understand and start to agree. It seems like the biggest challende is in many ways just explaining things clearly enough i a step by step fashion. I think we should start working on creating a long series of intro level posts explaining the most important things clearly and in a non offensive manner and then gathering all of it on a webpage we can all send people to. I also think we should think through which posts already written get important ideas across in a way that is fairly digestible and include those.

    I recomend you read this text. I think it is the best text on game I have come across. It connects game to deeper traits such as presence in the Buddhist/Taoist/Yogic sense and its relationship to masculinity. It is extremely healthy. It is much easier for a beta guy to digest and to work with. It is written in a way that is non offensive. I have seen these guys DVDs and they communicate in a way that is not offensive to women as long as the women have some openness towards masculine feminine polarity. In fact women tend to love their stuff in the same way they love Deida which is the inspiration for their teachings in many ways.

    http://www.authenticmanprogram.com/igtp/InnerGameStickingPoints.pdf

    There is a whole movement sort of for reviving masculinity and femininity within the new age world. A lot of this stuff is really good and clearly beyond what the sphere teaches, more healthy and less offensive. At the same time some of it is horrible and run by people still apologizing for being masculine and riddled with feminist induced shame. But, as I said, a lot of this stuff is now really good. They lack the will to communicate some of the hard truths (the dangers of promiscuity, the impact of age etc.) but basically they get it. They are very good at framing things positive. My hope is that the sphere will discover these guys and integrate their teachings while also giving them a slight kick in the ass for chickening out on some harsh truths.

    Related to this there is also the whole mythopetic movement and related masculine initiation communities. They base their teachings on Robert Blys book Iron Jhon. The work they do accomplish a lot of the inner game goals the sphere has but in a much deeper and healthier way. They are really good at developing a mature masculinity. Teaching men to cut of the cord to “mother energy” and being scared of offending the feminine is key to what they do.

    Some of this movement still have too much feminist guilt and still fail to see a lot of things the sphere things are important. However, those guys are waking up more and more and guys such as pelle billing who is an MRA blogger have done great work in this regard. This is quite a big movement. The mankindproject for example has had over 40 000 men come to their initiation weekends and they are only one of several such organisations. Guys who attend tend to hook up in mens groups networks that stay in conctact for life. Having a sphere for men to communicate without any female influence is key to their thinking.

    I want all of this to grow together into one thing. Making these groups grow together massively increases our power. The stuff the alternative people do will help bring game to a higher level, make it way more healthy and deep and connected to how a man should develop his masculinity long term. Because the male initiation process thing has always been about removing boys from society from some time and connecting with a community of other and older men in order to avoid becoming to weak in relation to the feminine I think that movement will be important in liberating men and building a sort of ideology and a life long community of men.

    Reply
  • She’s confused. And you guys are kind of allowing her to reframe your arguments for you. Maybe the manosphere contains SOME guys who are frustrated with relationships, but I know I, for one, have never in my adolescent to adult life had a problem relationship-wise. I can have just about any non-famous or non-obscenely wealthy woman I want. If that’s what I want. I’m not frustrated by relationships, I’m frustrated by the stark contrast in legal rights and social graces afforded to females as opposed to those afforded to men.

    This chick is solipsistic to the nth degree. Her entire comment is basically an attempt to generalize from things that are important to HER (like her social circle) to an understanding of the manosphere. This is a typical approach, but it will never lead to any real comprehension. She’s too focused on herself to even IMAGINE things from a man’s perspective.Even as she pretends to “get it”. It’s a back-handed shaming tactic.

    “OHHHHHH, I get it. You’re all bitter and you can’t get laid. I’m so sorry you’re losers…*tear*”

    The reason she doesn’t understand the manosphere is because the idea of extending equivalent rights to men such as women receive never even OCCURRED to her.

    “Oh, you want the right to presumed shared custody of your children? You must have been molested as a kid. Something bad like that must have occurred to you,or else why would you be asking for something wacky like equal rights for men? I feel so sorry for you.”

    Reply
    • I think you missed her point. She was confused and probably only read the parts of these blogs mostly with hostile men commenting bitterly about all woman in generalities from bitter personal issues. So she refuted that with her own story as a example of how woman make ify choices just like men do but learn better hopefully. Men seem to take this much harder then woman by the way.
      You are the one getting off topic. I would refute your legal blah blah but I need sleep.

      Reply
  • http://3rdmilleniummen.wordpress.com/2013/04/02/the-huffington-post/comment-page-1/#comment-2987

    It seems the manosphere is breaking into the mainstream quite fast now.

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  • The manosphere exists as a consequence of feminist social innovation in the last half-century, which has resulted in men as a political class being marginalized and treated like garbage.

    That about sums it up.

    Saves a lot of words. . doesn’t it?

    I have a great talent for compression of information, sometimes. . .

    Reply
    • “The manosphere exists as a consequence of feminist social innovation in the last half-century…saves a lot of words doesn’t it?”

      True. But have you tried talking about post-feminism to your average high school kid, hell even an average college kid? They have no fucking clue what you are talking about. You gotta break it down for them my man.

      I remember one time in college at a track party, dude asks me what capitalism is. Dude had no clue. You underestimate the resilience of people to not actually grasp large ism’s.

      Reply
  • The worst way to lose your virginity is to get raped.
    Encouraging douche behavior and self promoting products that don’t work makes most of the sphere look bad. Speaking in generalities, being hostile to people who even disagree slightly are routine.

    I think some good could come from these blogs but it often turns into the nasty side (people with serious possibly mental (personality disorder or psychopaths) or criminal issues) or impractical side(so cons thinking everybody should be a virgin never get divorced etc…).Hyper masculine advocating attracts the kind of people who are harmed by helping their victims get away from them.
    Have never figured out why the racist show up a lot except they have some cross over beliefs that correlate with the others.

    Reply
    • Interesting comments. Which blogs are you reading that are encouraging douche behavior? And self promoting products that don’t work? I’m curious.

      Reply
  • hello keanu, i’ll try to keep this post as short as possible, even though i want to say quite a few things here.

    first of all, i found out about the manosphere like one month ago, and for me that was one big surprise, i had no idea that something like this existed. since then, i’ve been reading bunch of blogs that deal with the topic. i have never ever entered into any of the conversations, because i was feeling uncomfortable to post in the mostly boy zone kind of thing, and because a lot of participants were rather aggressive. but having read some of your posts, i find you to be rational, moderate and decent person so i thought you might not be bothered if i share my point of view and experience with you.

    i’m not american, i come from europe, but my boyfriend is american. i’ve lived in two european countries and visited most of them, and honestly i never managed to notice something like manosphere kind of mood back there (maybe because i wasn’t familiar with it), so i assume that’s more your kind of thing.having met and shared flat with significant amount of american men and women i always considered europe and the states to be pretty similar. honestly, i was never too much into american culture and society until i actually met my bf when i moved to south america for work. he hasn’t been to europe yet, i haven’t been to the states so that was a constant reason to make fun of each other about who’s better. anyways, there are definitely some cultural differences – in my country i’m considered to be pretty independent, not really traditional person, and nothing near typical lady, whereas for him i’m nothing like american girls, being (in a nutshell) more girly, traditional and feminine than average. i didn’t really take him seriously until i started reading some of the above mentioned blogs. anyways, not really my problem, i do and act the way i was taught in my family, which is still considered to be the core of the society back there…so living healthily, respecting and supporting and caring about each other is very important and normal for me… i guess we’re all different. however, in spite of cultural differences, it’s still difficult for me to understand how come the trend of extreme feminism or “anti-masculinism” is so widely accepted that there are men actually complaining about that so much. but once again, haven’t been there so what i get to know is what i read online.

    i commented on some of those blogs and general attitude of some of the participants with him, but he’s not familiar with it. personally, i don’t like people who complain too much (male or female) and i don’t find men who tend to talk publicly about how manly, masculine and dominant they are to be too attractive. that’s everything but masculine IMO…the true manly man, the way i see it, is simply natural. no need for proofs of any kind (as the matter of fact that´s as lame as a girl sticking her boobs out into everybody´s face so that you get to notice her; or “look at me i´m lifting weights, i´m so strooong!!!” kind of guy). masculinity just shines out of him, that’s the way he is. i like man to be man in a typical way, with the respect and love and care for his woman, just as much as she should love him, respect him, and treat him well…and all that in a simple and natural way. i want to feel like a woman by his side, and i want him to feel like a man by my side…whereas i believe we are and should be equal, i believe we are different as well….i mean, in the end, you’re ruled by testosterone and we are by estrogen, and that’s just the way it is haha…and for me that’s what’s normal. we’re here to love and support each other so i’m really bothered and irritated with the male or female hatred and frustration towards the opposite sex.

    as for me, i found all i want in my american guy when i least expected it, and if i’m to judge from my humble experience, and from my male american friends (all well educated people though, so i’m talking about that profile), i’d say that you guys are very lovable, reliable, active, respectful, not lazy and easygoing which is more than enough for me to make a relationship work, apart from some personal preferences such as interests for instance…having good american girlfriends as well, i’m not really sure what happened between male and female over there, so i’m not the one to judge.

    and finally, i hope you won´t mind if i say that feminism still is necessary, however maybe not everywhere. but where i come from and in many other countries women do need help, because the law is either purely formal and there´s no real practice of it or there is no female protection at all…not to enter into some extreme cases which fortunately don’t happen in my part of the world. but just like with everything else, we shouldn’t exaggerate with anything and therefore end up facing it’s potentially negative consequences. to give you an example, i know a few cases of girls getting fired because of becoming pregnant, or literally being mobbed and forced to sign the contract that they wouldn’t do any baby-making thing during certain period of time…as someone who wants to have family at some point, i find this infringement of basic human right to be pretty shocking…and not everybody can permit to have a family with only one working parent, especially in poor countries.

    once again, i hope you won´t be bothered by my post, me being a very curious and observant person, i often find myself investigating things online and this topic really got me sucked in.

    wish you all the best, and good luck with writing your blog!

    Reply
    • You bring up some interesting arguments. You say you like guys who ‘just are masculine,’ just get it. What about guys who don’t know how to ‘get it?’ Check out this post:

      http://therationalmale.com/2012/08/22/just-get-it/

      I’ll respond in full shortly, but for now, I’ll just say this:

      Feminism is taking over in the US and the UK. This is an indisputable fact that any person who closely examines reality can see. I will provide you with more specific examples of how exactly this is and what the repercussions are, but you must first accept this premise in order to understand the manosphere.

      I really like the point you make about the difference between third world feminism and first world feminism. First world feminism is a movement which has already achieved its means, but for some reason continues. In the U.S.: 60% of all colleges are female, yet more and more policies are put in place to make institutions more female friendly. This is a disconnect.

      Lyra, I have worked in a development organization for 2 years in Latin America, in one of the poorest countries. Feminists who want to see some actual gender discrimination should go there. Feminists here think they have problems because somebody called them fat (which was probably true). Someone takes a compliment the wrong way and it’s sexual harassment. Meanwhile, real motherfucking discrimination is taking place in other countries (like you bring up), yet we (the royal ‘we,’ meaning our feminist slanted institutions) choose to our energy into passing laws into place that assume men and women are the SAME, demonizing both masculinity and femininity.

      And fucking ironically, in that SAME country where all of the guys are super masculine and look down upon women, MANY OF THE WOMEN FROM MY ORGANIZATION CHOSE TO MARRY MEN FROM THAT CULTURE. Hmmm. Was it because they wanted the masculine man they couldn’t find in the U.S.?

      Alright, that turned into a bit of a rant but I hope you get the idea.
      I will also say this, since you are from Europe. I was skyping a few days ago with a good friend of mine who is from Spain, but who attended my university. I asked him the thing that stands out to him the most about American girls. He had two answers:

      1) American Girls are a lot less feminine than Spanish girls, and
      2) Sex is like nothing to them. They’ll be like “Oh we’re going to the bars? Well let me give you a blowjob beforehand.”

      His words, not mine. That, in a nutshell, is what is happening in the U.S. on a large scale. Feminism has turned us into a promiscuous culture where men are afraid to be masculine and women want to be masculine. I’ll get you some studies to demonstrate the first premise to you. Let me know what other questions you have.

      Where are you from in Europe? And where in South America were you? You can send me an email if you don’t want to post.

      Reply
  • thanks for your reply keanu! i guess i understand your point, it’s just since i’ve never been in your country (and visited the UK long time ago), the general idea i can get is very limited to some people i know and what i read online. and i do believe that feminism in different countries has more or less or even no meaning and importance right now, depending on where you are. i appreciate your answer.

    as for me, i have mixed origins, from croatian/italian dad and serbian mom, having spent most of my childhood between serbia and croatia, and most of my adulthood in serbia, before i moved to spain where i spent a few years mostly in barcelona. currently, im in peru, and i´ll spend some time here, because of my job. i grew up in by no means typical family, with both parents being pretty educated and liberal, in a mixture of mediterranean and continental culture. therefore, I never found myself too comfortable in my environment, which is generally more traditional but nothing radical, although recently with bizarre mixture of tradition and western influence (sadly, only bad things being “imported”, but that´s another topic, one of those things is extreme growth of promiscuity, but in a really bad way, nothing like the old school idea of sexual liberation movements etc).

    anyways, being woman in a country like mine can be though sometimes because of that weird mixture of different influences, therefore women are frequently expected to work, take care of family and household all by themselves, and look good. men at the same time are…traditionally and ironically by their mothers taught to be taken care of and enjoy life, without bothering too much about anything but work…of course there are really cool, intelligent men, mostly amongs younger generations, who are just as capable as one could wish, but the traditional family is still very dominant. unfortunately, feminism brought mostly obligations but few rights there, and that´s what even men say…because slavic countries and people are simply different. i can only imagine that in countries like russia it gets even worse. we grow machos back there, but you have to understand, that they´re very different from the ones you might have met in latin america. at the same time, they´re more faithful and loyal, but pretty bad tempered and can be really difficult to deal with. nevertheless, even though they´re not my cup of tea, either because of the culture, history or whatever else, our women seem to like them.

    as for natural masculine men, i have to say the same thing for women. i´m totally anti make-up, high heels and similar “beautification” things, at least when you´re young and fresh (ok that´s my taste of course) therefore I apply the same rule for women – you were born a woman, you are naturally feminine, and you should take care of it by being clean, healthy and fit…i mean that´s what you are!!! the same way I don´t understand men boasting about how masculine they are with really some stupid things (look at me i lift weights, or i´m a motherfucker with tough attitude and everybody must know that!),i don´t understand women trying to be pretty with fake help (may it be fake boobs, tons of make up or whatever really, which in the end only contributes to premature ageing but whatever…) where at the same time they don´t take care of neither mental nor physical health (like being too much into things like celebrity lives and gossips, being bitchy with no reason (for me that´s No1. anti-feminine feature one could have), being fat and/or dirty etc..). i hope you´ll manage to understand my point here on both ideas of being masculine/feminine. that´s something you´ve been born with. i mean, I can´t be more man than you, or vice verse. for me that´s just it, therefore we should be what we are, and respect and love the other one for the same reason. of course fighting against the general attitude or trend in one society can be though – how to be a man in a strongly feminist society for you, or how to be a woman who doesn´t want to be the over-painted, over-sexualized (in a way that not everybody needs to see how sexual you are, for me that´s something that´s reserved exclusively for my man, so don´t get me wrong on this one) and objectified thing in her own society? well it´s difficult and rough road, but having consciously chosen that way myself, i´m more than happy to say that it brought me only truly great guys whom i got to appreciate both as men and persons…and finally an amazing man with whom i hope to share my life. honestly, for me the idea of swimming against the current was never a matter of question whenever i would feel bad within a generally accepted trend, and i really believe that wrong choices and lack of healthy criticism is what brings us on a wrong way and finally into frustration.

    so, yes i guess i do understand the idea of your movement, as much as someone who comes from pretty different cultural circumstances could understand….btw, i know as well bunch of both peace corps and other americans here in relationships with non-americans, and not only peruvians…i guess living abroad really opens your eyes and makes you question your beliefs and culture, even til the point when you get to realize that you like the new thing better…

    Reply
  • Hi Keanu!

    “I spent two years in the Peace Corps immersed in a culture in which the masculine-feminine roles were clearly defined, and both men and women embraced them.”

    Can you elaborate on why you think women embraced the roles that they were given and happier with it?

    The reason I ask is because you are a male and I don’t know whether or not you can accurately judge a group of women’s happiness. Did you take the time to get to know these women or were just judging them from afar? If some women were unhappy, would they have been comfortable enough to express their unhappiness to a foriegner? Were they allowed to even talk to another male besides their husband or family members? America put a lot of value on individuality and american women have the ablity to express their unhappiness more freely compared to traditional cultures.

    Can you elaborate what you mean by masculine-feminine roles?

    I’m a fan of Helen Fisher. She is an anthropologist considered to be an expert on romantic interpersonal attraction and relationships. She claims that in a hunter gather society, men and women were regarded as equals and were economically able to take care of themsleves. When the agricultural revolution happened, the traditional male and female roles were developed. The article is below.

    http://www.wfs.org/content/new-monogamy-forward-past

    She is claiming that since women have gained back economical power, relationships are now more equal. More divorces are happening because both genders are able to leave each other without financial burden or social backlash. She views this as a good thing because people are pursuing happiness and lifetime satisfaction through multiple long term relationships.

    *Note: I agree that the laws for divorce and child custody favors women.

    Reply
    • “I spent two years in the Peace Corps immersed in a culture in which the masculine-feminine roles were clearly defined, and both men and women embraced them.”

      I suppose I didn’t fully elaborate on this thought. So here I go. I didn’t even see how it was possible that men could fully embrace being masculine, and women would be fine with being feminine, and having a guy take care of them. Having grown up in the androgenous zone of the U.S., I took for granted the way we treated feminine and masculine roles. I didn’t even realize how much we were demonizing men for being masculine and women for being feminine. I spoke with many, many men and women while I was in Latin America, and in fact they were more honest with me than they were with a lot of people. I was there long enough to gain their trust, but it wasn’t like I was going to gossip about them with their neighbors. I was there for 2 years breaking bread with these people and speaking their indigenous language. So to answer your question, I took the time to get to know them. That was what I did with almost all of my time there. I was the only American in a small ass town for 2 years. They were my best friends. Some still are.

      Were their lives like Pleasantville? No. Were the women jumping out of bed every morning to cook and clean? Not always. Were there exceptions where women did masculine work? Yes.

      But the point is, having grown up in the U.S., I couldn’t even imagine that people could be remotely happy living with gender roles like that. I was pissed off and I didn’t know why. Through self reflection and discovery of the manosphere, I understand better why now.

      And if we want to go with the studies, a recent one found that the country I was in is in the top 5 happiest in the world. I’ve come around.

      Then I did some remembering about the guys in my life I had known who were the most successful with women. The ones who had never been friend-zoned. They coincidentally also happened to be the most masculine guys. Only this is no coincidence. Whatever women may say, they are biologically attracted to dominant, masculine men. This is what lot’s of people don’t want to admit.

      I am guessing you are new to the manosphere (how did you find this blog by the way? I am curious) but the statement “More divorces are happening because both genders are able to leave each other without financial burden” is just simply false. Any other manosphere commenter area would crucify you for saying that, since a lot of the guys here have been burned to shreds in divorces. Fact: 2/3 of divorces are female-initiated.

      Okay, let’s talk about Helen Fisher. I found this snippet of the article you forwarded me interesting:
      children were most likely experimenting with sex and love by age six. Teens lived together, in relationships known as “trial marriages.” Men and women chose their partners for themselves. Many were unfaithful—a propensity common in all 42 extant cultures I have examined. When our forebears found themselves in an unhappy partnership, these ancients walked out. A million years ago, anthropologists suspect, most men and women had two or three long-term partners across their lifetimes.

      So when people in pre-historical times were in an unhappy relationship, they left. In modern terms-they divorced. On the other hand, everyone lived a tribe with all of their relatives, so they would see their kids all the time, even if they ‘divorced.’ Now when there is a divorce the woman automatically assumes custody and moves a town away, if not across the country.
      Our government laws and institutions are clearly biased against men. Yet, we are still talking about glass ceilings, and how we can make our institutions more comfortable for women! 60% of college grads are women. This is simply a disconnect. The reality is that less and less men are being successful in today’s feminized school-system and legal system, while we are still talking about how the system discriminates against women.

      All of this being said, I’m not going to sit here like I have the answer to feminine and masculine roles in society. I believe we are still sorting this out. We I appreciate your thoughtful comment. I am curious: Why is this something you are interested in enough to write out a long comment?

      Cheers,
      Keanu

      Reply
  • “I am guessing you are new to the manosphere (how did you find this blog by the way? I am curious)”

    I first started becoming interested in the manosphere through a relationship forum. I would make a comment here and there to men who were asking for advice on dating women. I came across a lot of comments about women only wanting only douche bags, slut shaming, feminists are evil and ruined everything, blah, blah… Got accused of once having stupid “women logic”…

    “But the point is, having grown up in the U.S., I couldn’t even imagine that people could be remotely happy living with gender roles like that. I was pissed off and I didn’t know why. Through self reflection and discovery of the manosphere, I understand better why now.”
    “Having grown up in the androgenous zone of the U.S., I took for granted the way we treated feminine and masculine roles. I didn’t even realize how much we were demonizing men for being masculine and women for being feminine.”

    I guess we developed different view on gender roles. I grew up in an androgenous zone as well, but didn’t develop a distaste for gender roles nor witness this demonizing masculine/feminine traits. The only thing I notice was masculine men tends to bully non-masculine men. Women were pretty much accepted regardless whether they were prissy princesses or tomboys. I always felt lucky being born a woman to be more flexible with my masculine and feminine traits. Maybe this is evidence of a pro-women society.

    “Fact: 2/3 of divorces are female-initiated.”

    I do know this. In fact, this was the main reason why I started reading the manosphere blogs. I’m a 26 year old single woman who is wondering whether marriage is right for her. I been researching the reasons why women are initiating divorces and found that most of them are just plain unhappy with their husband’s lack of attention, affection, communication skills, etc. I was in a relationship with a man for almost a year and I had to break up with him. He started making nasty judgmental comments toward me around 6 months into the relationship which made me upset. He thought I was “too sensitive”. Whenever I tried to talk to him to convince him to stop, he would resist and try to sweep things under the rug and pretended that it didn’t happen. I sympathize with why most women divorce their husbands and understand why their husbands were usually caught “off guard” by the divorce. My ex was shocked and confused when I dumped him. He asked why. Again when I tried to explain to him, he got frustrated half way through the explanation and tuned me out. I didn’t know how to get him to listen to me and protect his ego from being damaged at the same time.

    Judging from the PUA blogs, it looks like my SMV as a women is taking a nose dive after 25. If I want to marry, I should marry now when I’m the most physically attractive. But I would rather be 35 and single than 35 and divorced with three kids. I’m pretty pessimistic judging from the world around me.

    “More divorces are happening because both genders are able to leave each other without financial burden” is just simply false. Any other manosphere commenter area would crucify you for saying that, since a lot of the guys here have been burned to shreds in divorces.”

    This is why I put on the bottom of my comment that “Note: I agree that the laws for divorce and child custody favors women.” My original wording was incorrect. I should have said “both genders are able to leave each other with LESS financial burden” This opinion was originally based on the women’s increased labor value. But let’s see how men are doing.

    I did a search on Google “men are wealthier after divorce”
    These are the first two sites that came up.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/jan/25/divorce-women-research

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1127333/For-richer-poorer-Why-divorce-makes-men-wealthier–women-left-worse-off.html

    Of course that’s cherry picking data. I also googled “Men lose money after divorce”, “Men poorer after divorce” “Men lose everything divorce” etc. But these results do not lead me to any strong data that makes the opposite argument.

    Do you know any studies?

    I’m pretty sure that men who went through divorce without being burned to shred wouldn’t be a part of the manosphere to speak about their experiences in the first place.

    “Our government laws and institutions are clearly biased against men. Yet, we are still talking about glass ceilings, and how we can make our institutions more comfortable for women! 60% of college grads are women. This is simply a disconnect. The reality is that less and less men are being successful in today’s feminized school-system and legal system, while we are still talking about how the system discriminates against women.”

    I totally agree!!!! It looks like men are being punished right now for the inequality that past women faced.

    “So when people in pre-historical times were in an unhappy relationship, they left. In modern terms-they divorced. On the other hand, everyone lived a tribe with all of their relatives, so they would see their kids all the time, even if they ‘divorced.’ Now when there is a divorce the woman automatically assumes custody and moves a town away, if not across the country.”

    Good point. I didn’t think of that. I don’t know how society can solve this particular problem. Ideally, a society give it’s people the freedom to lead their own lives and make decisions on what they think is best for their children. But if the father and mother have opposing opinions on what is best for their children, there is no right and fair solution. It’s sad that we need a third party to intervene.

    “I appreciate your thoughtful comment. I am curious: Why is this something you are interested in enough to write out a long comment”

    I’m fascinated by social science.

    Reply
    • “I been researching the reasons why women are initiating divorces and found that most of them are just plain unhappy with their husband’s lack of attention, affection, communication skills, etc. I was in a relationship with a man for almost a year and I had to break up with him. He started making nasty judgmental comments toward me around 6 months into the relationship which made me upset.”

      - That was the time for an ultimatum: either stop with this crap or I leave you.

      “He thought I was “too sensitive”. Whenever I tried to talk to him to convince him to stop, he would resist and try to sweep things under the rug and pretended that it didn’t happen. I sympathize with why most women divorce their husbands and understand why their husbands were usually caught “off guard” by the divorce. My ex was shocked and confused when I dumped him. He asked why. Again when I tried to explain to him, he got frustrated half way through the explanation and tuned me out. I didn’t know how to get him to listen to me and protect his ego from being damaged at the same time.”

      – Communication is a big issue and a very important one. A person may not be very open or communicative but if he or she is willing to acquire some skills, like through a course or something, then you can work with them. However if they are unwilling, get out and move on as quickly as possible. Too many people waste their youth (their most fertile reproductive years) in these type of bad “relationships” when they could be looking for a more compatible mate.

      That’s why its very important to keep all your options open while you are young and not lock yourself down with just one person too soon.

      Reply
  • Sometimes it’s helpul to make things as simple as possible for beginners…. my attempt, FWIW..

    Truth #1. Women, throughout all history, have harbored a deep genetic impulse to marry, or mate with, men of higher status. (“Hypergamy”)

    Truth #2 Feminism, throughout the modern West, has lowered the relative social and economic status of men.

    The collision of these 2 facts, explains most of what’s wrong with our society.

    Men of high socioeconomic status — the UC and UMC — can still attract wives and, for the most part, successfully create normal 2 parent families.

    Raw, wild forms of masculinity — athleticism, rock-stardom, outright criminality — are immune to the solvent of feminism. These men can attract whatever women they wish, either for marriage or a de facto harem.

    But a man who makes a modest income at an honest but low-status job, no longer gets status points for simply being a good man. Fifty years ago, he’d be married with kids; today he’s “despised and rejected of women, a man of sorrows, accused as a creep.”

    Reply
    • Feminists should fight for the right to enter polygamous marriages. Instead of obtaining a man who only makes $10,000 a year, I get a chance to obtain a man who makes $100,000 and share him with 3 or 4 other women.

      Isn’t social and economic status of men relative? Women will always fight each other for the top 20 percent regardless of who the 20 percent is.

      Reply
      • Already happening. For example this couple is not only in an “open marriage” but they’ve built an empire around teaching other couples how to transition from monogamy to poly.

        http://www.jujumamablog.com/

        They’ve been on Dr. Phil, Mo’nique and Fox News as well as other smaller media outlets.

      • ” Women will always fight each other for the top 20 percent regardless of who the 20 percent is.”

        Women are not “fighting for the top 20% of men”. Are you American? Go to any of our malls, public spaces, Walmart, whatever and take a look around. The overwhelming majority of men are average and below average – and they are coupled with a girlfriend or wife.

      • AUM. The ‘overwhelming majority of men are average or below average’ would on the face of it be statistically impossible. Reminds of a survey of women done by a magazine that 80% of men are below average. Solipsism run amok

  • Reply
  • “To sum up, my roommate, “Dan,” had a girlfriend for four years who refused to have sex with him even as he was the nicest boyfriend on the face of the earth. He would do anything for this girl, and she didn’t reciprocate with sex because he was such a pushover. Dan is an example of someone who has been over-feminized by today’s society and cannot man up and take control of his relationships as a result, especially the sexual side. ”

    - How would you suggest he “take control of the sexual side” in a situation where his girlfriend did not want to have sex with him?

    And you did not address WHY she didn’t want to have sex with him.

    You say he needed to learn relationship and social skills but he already had at least some of both if he had a gf to begin with.

    Also, it is not the job of public or private educational institutions to teach boys or young men how to get sex from their girlfriends so I don’t know where you were going with this comment, “The answer to Dan’s connudrum lies in the fact that he has never been taught relationship skills. But where is he to learn those skills? They are not taught to him by his father, nor his mother, nor his high school teacher. “

    Reply
  • “Guys who have been burned, badly, in divorces, or watched their wives get fat in marriage and thus stopped having a sex life are on the manosphere. ”

    Age happens. People go bald, get wrinkles, gain weight. One doesn’t need to “stop having a sex life” because of any of it.

    Reply
    • “Age happens. People go bald, get wrinkles, gain weight. One doesn’t need to “stop having a sex life” because of any of it.”

      I forgot to add, “Athol Kay and his wife are great examples of that”.

      “Guys are told not to be men, and women are told not to be ladies.”

      Don’t you mean men are told not to be gentleman and women are told not to be ladies?

      Reply
  • I appreciated this overview. I admit to having a similar impression as Audrey in reading *some* blogposts. The one thing I would say, though, is that there seems to be an undercurrent of sexual entitlement–the expectation that a man should be able to get as much sex as he wants when he wants. This expectation can only depend on feminism which encourages women to be promiscuous. The only man who is truly entitled to sex with a woman is the man who has vowed to be her husband and she his wife. So if the men are not offering that kind of commitment, they haven’t offered enough to be angry that their girlfriend isn’t sleeping with them.

    Men before feminism didn’t feel entitled to sex. While I get that men are frustrated in seeing some men having sex more easily than they can, that doesn’t mean they are owed it. So this whole PUA stuff coupled with criticisms of feminism seem like someone saying “Hey, I’m not the one who robbed the bank, but I’ll be happy to share in the spoils. Oh, and bank robbery is evil!” Skirt chasers can’t ride high horses.

    Reply

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